Cross skating/ Double Teaming, How does your team deal with this ? Options

[Elizabeth]

Our club is considering changing it s policy regarding skaters skating on two teams. We have in the past not encouraged double teaming but some people are pushing for it . We would like to have as much information as possible about other teams experiences(ie what worked and what didn't work) before we consider changing our policy.


I understand there are a lot of issues dealing with scheduling, team loyalty, skater being menatlly able to handle it, etc. which have to be dealt with, and any advice is helpful, but here are some specific questions we have :

Are skaters given a discount on ice and coaching for a second team?

If they are given a discount does the club pay that extra amount or do the other skaters end up paying more (ie if 20 girls skate and 2 are double teamers are ice/coaching costs divided by 20 and the discount price for the 2 girls picked up by the club or are the costs divided by 18 full payments and 2 partial payments)

For teams that offer a big discount do you find you have a lot of skaters double teaming ?

Do you only allow double teaming if teams are short skaters, or offer it to anyone who wants to get extra ice time?


On full teams, if skaters are given a major discount, and then given a full spot have you had to deal with parents / skaters who have paid a full price and then only become alternates feeling "ripped off" ?

Is there a limit in your club to how many skaters can double team?

Does anyone have a specific written POLICY that they can share with me.?

Thanks so much for your help,

Elizabeth Franklin

[Ben Sherman]

My daughter did one season of this for Nationals. It was only done on the basis of a permanent cross over to a new team (junior to senior).
Clashes on training at competition time presented a problem and the coaches were not really happy.
It was a good idea to start with but at least my daughter was able to change to a team that was selected to go overseas.

[Guest_Finno]

In Finland clubs encourage double teaming only when they are short of skaters and there's a chance that a team might fold. Nowadays it is really tough to skate on two teams due to several practices, and the high costs. When cross skating, the skater is doing a favor to the club so the club really cannot (and should not) charge any extras. Basically the skater pays for skating in one team only and the club pays for the rest. If one person had to pay for everything just because she's helping out the club and the teams, no one would ever cross skate and certain teams/clubs would get into serious problems

[Easterndad]

In the case where the skater is helping fill out a team by cross-skating there should be some kind of break because the club benefits from the skaters additional commitment.

However, I am aware of situations where the team doesn't really need people to cross-skate. In this case the skater/parent wants their skater to have an edge in making the higher team (eg., novice and junior/senior or juvie and intermediate). In this case I believe there may be no financial break for cross-skating.

In general, I am not a believer in cross-skating except where it is critical to fielding a team.

[SyNcHrO bAbE!!]

i myself double skated for about 4 years and we never had a finacial break it was the same price for you to skate one team as it was to skate two. I must say that my memories of skating two teams are hectic but they were of course lots of fun!!! Of course the coach was the same for the two teams and i dont know if that is your situation but i just thought i would drop my two sense!!!

[booster]

My daughter cross skated a few years ago, and it was only because they needed the cross skaters to have enough skaters to field a team. For that team, she paid for her dress and competition fees, but was not charged for ice/coaching. That seemed fair. It was pretty easy because the two teams were both lower level and only had one program each. Based on what I've seen/heard when skaters cross from Novice to Junior, it is very hard on the skater--physically and mentally.

[rubi]

I'm the mum of a Novice Synchro skater from Australia (novice is the first level eligible for Nationals) we have 3 of skaters in our team who are actually Quad teaming....Novice, Juniors, Senior & Adult. There are also three who are double teaming too (novice/juniors). I might add that my daughter (who is 12 yo) is NOT one of these. My daughter was asked to double team but I said NO. As for the cost there is No reduction to anyone in more than one team. Our current Senior team is in development so the cost aren't high and they are not going to Nationals this year (on the other side of Australia) which of course keeps costs down.
I honestly don't know howanyone could afford to double team...the cost for novice are extrodinary...ie: Tuesday am practise $15, Wednesday pm practise $13 plus off ice ballet, fitness etc which is about $10 per week. School holiday training approx $15 per day x 14 days. Plus costumes (a fortune) practise costumes x 3 and and the list goes on and on. My daughter also does singles and has 3 private lessons a week. I'd be interested to know how costs compare in other countries.

[US mom]

My daughter is crossing for the first time this year - novice and junior. She made the junior team and has a full spot but after some "personnel" changes on the novice level she was asked by the coach to cross as an alternate to novice. It has turned out that she is skating a full spot on novice. If you'd asked me a year or two ago, I'd have sworn that I'd never let her do it. Maybe I'll feel the same in March but she really WANTS to cross - even though she's older, 14, her maturity level is closer to the novice kids. We discussed the time involved and sacrifices that have to be made - no time for much fun stuff at competitions etc. I think at some level she likes the idea that novice really needs her and she's probably the strongest one on that line where on junior she's the new short one.
In any case, we've agreed to do it. There is no added cost = crosses on our teams have always paid the higher team cost only. There is the extra cost to me in gas, time, stops at the sub shop but I do get to see my novice mom friends so I guess it's worth it. Ask me after San Diego!

[luna_soul]

QUOTE (rubi @ Oct 25 2003, 05:48 AM)

we have 3 of skaters in our team who are actually Quad teaming....Novice, Juniors, Senior & Adult.

How on earth can a Novice skater also be skating Adult? What are your age restrictions in Australia? In Canada, the oldest you can be to skate Competitive Novice is 15, and the minimum age to skate Competitive Adult is 18!!

[rubi]

QUOTE

How on earth can a Novice skater also be skating Adult? What are your age restrictions in Australia? In Canada, the oldest you can be to skate Competitive Novice is 15, and the minimum age to skate Competitive Adult is 18!!

I'll have to get back to you on the age requirements, the only one I'm positive on is Novice...they have to be under 15 on the 1st July. On a Wednesday night nearly all of the Synchro Teams practise one after the other....when I noticed that one of our Novice skaters was practising with the Adult team I queried the age requirement......I can't remember what the exact answer was but I think it was something to do with percentages
ie: a certain percentage of the team must be over 18 (maybe 75%)...dont quote me on this though. I'm not sure what the rules are for Seniors but currently there is at least one skater (maybe more) who is only 11 years old...however I seem to remember someone telling me he is not actually eligible to compete. Our senior team is in development so only do exhibitions at this stage.

Austalia is certainly not a Figure or Synchro country....we often struggle to get skaters for Synchro. Our home rink is small (approx half size) but I'm fairly sure we have more Synchro teams than any other rink in Australia...Fortunatly three of our coaches are very, very Synchro orientated (they all coach singles to high levels too) they work very hard to recrute single skaters by forming development squads.

Every Friday after my daughters private lesson (she is 12 yo) she stays on along with another boy (who is also 12yo) and they assist the coaches in training the "Aussie Skate" synchro develpment squads...Aussie Skate is like "Can Skate" in Canada (not sure what it's called in the US)

Our little rink currently has 3 Aussie Skate development Squads...so as you can see Synchro is HUGE for our rink and Club....

We are all very excited at the moment as it is only 3 weeks to Nationals...we have to travel half way across the country to Queensland for them...but Queensland is a great State, always sunny and they have wonderful rinks.


This post has been edited by rubi: Oct 31 2003, 05:07 AM

[Guest_Finno]

QUOTE (luna_soul @ Oct 26 2003, 01:51 PM)

QUOTE (rubi @ Oct 25 2003, 05:48 AM) we have 3 of skaters in our team who are actually Quad teaming....Novice, Juniors, Senior & Adult. How on earth can a Novice skater also be skating Adult? What are your age restrictions in Australia? In Canada, the oldest you can be to skate Competitive Novice is 15, and the minimum age to skate Competitive Adult is 18!!

...and how on earth do they have the time to skate in four teams? How much do these Australian teams practice per week (on ice and off ice)? And yes, just like in Canada, we do have age restrictions here in Finland, too. So it wouldn't even be possible to skate in four teams (besides, the senior teams wouldn't even accept novice skaters because usually skaters that young aren't good enough for the senior level).

Hey luna_soul, I've noticed during the years that us Finns and you Canadians live in a "similar synchro world"... What I mean is that the competition is tough, and the skaters in the hp teams train and live like "real athletes". They would never have the time nor the will to skate in four teams.

Rubi: To me, it sounds ridiculous when people from "other countries" say that the practices cost too much - hey come on, they train something like twice a week on ice and once off ice. They never attend international competitions etc. Guess how much we pay for 15 hours training per week and for 2 international competitions each year? (not to mention the training camps twice a year)

[rubi]

QUOTE

we have 3 of skaters in our team who are actually Quad teaming....Novice, Juniors, Senior & Adult. How on earth can a Novice skater also be skating Adult? What are your age restrictions in Australia? In Canada, the oldest you can be to skate Competitive Novice is 15, and the minimum age to skate Competitive Adult is 18!!Firstly let me say that I agree, quad teaming is ridiculous...i would never let my daughter do it....as I mentioned in my first post my daughter was asked to double team and I said NO...i believe she should gain excellence in ONE TEAM....what you have to understand though is

Firstly let me say that I am totally against this business of quad teaming, and as you have written, international level synchro skater could NOT consider this option.

As I mentioned in my first post, my daughter was asked to double team, I said NO as I believe she should strive for excellence in one team.

As for our training schedule...and I can only speak for the Novice team (aged 8 years old to 14 years old) ...they train 3 days a week on ice and off ice (this includes ballet, personal training and fitness). During all School holidays they train 6 days a week ALL day. We have Nationals in 3 weeks so the training schedule has increased over the past month or so. Our Nationals is in late November and the Novice team has been training since last December without a break. All but one of our skaters also skaters Singles...so with singles added my daughter trains 6 days a week.

Of course the Novice team don't compete internationally but our Junior team has competed internationally. And remember everywhere is a long, long way from Australia so the travel costs are very high.

I was lucky enough to see a video of a international synchro competition from earlier this year...I was blown away with the teams from Finland, Canada and the US. It is the dream of everyone invloved in Synchro in Australia to reach your high standard.

Austalia is primarily a summer sport country, which is why despite our small population we win a zillion gold medals in swimming at the Summer Olympics. Synchro was slow to develop in its infancy here....however things are looking good for the future of Synchro in Australia and we hope one day to be as competitive as some of the Winter Sport Countries.

Just because our teams are not yet taking places on the podium at international competitons doesnt mean we are not taking the sport seriously, we do...Synchro skaters, parents and fans around the world should unite in our shared love of the sport to help Synchro receive the respect and recognition it deserves

[Guest_Finno]

QUOTE (rubi @ Oct 31 2003, 06:01 AM)

As for our training schedule...and I can only speak for the Novice team (aged 8 years old to 14 years old) ...they train 3 days a week on ice and off ice (this includes ballet, personal training and fitness). During all School holidays they train 6 days a week ALL day. We have Nationals in 3 weeks so the training schedule has increased over the past month or so. Our Nationals is in late November and the Novice team has been training since last December without a break.

I´m confused. You say that your novice team has been training since last December without a break. You say the team trains 6 days a week all day during school holidays. Gosh, even our senior teams don't train that much. Our top novice teams start doing their programs in August and the first compo is in November. Yet they are way better than international junior teams say from countries like Germany, France, Italy or Australia. How is it possible that your teams train so much and still achieve no results? Weird.

[rubi]

QUOTE

I´m confused. You say that your novice team has been training since last December without a break. You say the team trains 6 days a week all day during school holidays. Gosh, even our senior teams don't train that much. Our top novice teams start doing their programs in August and the first compo is in November. Yet they are way better than international junior teams say from countries like Germany, France, Italy or Australia. How is it possible that your teams train so much and still achieve no results?  Weird.

I am a little dissapointed that my response to this thread has received such negative responses from someone. I thought that this board was about friendly open supportive discussion not repeated critisism of other countries. As I mentioned I am a Synchro lover who is capable of admiring teams from all countries whether they be the top competative countries or those in the development stages of the sport.

Think about it from the point of view of single skating, I am sure in the womens division in the next Winter Olympics that the person who comes 15th will more than likely have trained as long and as hard as the person who wins the GOLD.

I think now I will withdraw from this thread and hopefully next time I choose to respond to a topic the responses will be more positive



This post has been edited by rubi: Nov 1 2003, 03:14 PM

[luna_soul]

Rubi, please keep in mind the nature of a board that has international members. I can't speak for Finno in particular, but it has been my experience that members on the board whose first language is not English sometimes come across more bluntly than intended. I personally am interested to learn more about how synchro works in other countries, and I think that's all Finno was trying to do as well.

[Guest_Finno]

Sorry for my aggressive style. It's my problem even in my native language . Didn't mean to offend you. I just don't understand why you guys don't achieve better results with all that training. What do the teams do during their practise sessions?

[rubi]

Cool...I guess I was probably being hyper sensitive (have the flu am tired etc etc etc)

Well let me give you an example of what our young Novice team were doing today (Sunday)

Firstly my daughter had one of her private lesson this morning at 10.00am, followed by her "Edges" lesson. Then at 1.00pm the Novice Synchro team all met at the beach for "Off Ice" (on a grassed area) today they worked on a lot on "extensions" "heads" and broke up the program and went throught bits of it repeatedly. They did this for 2 hours.
Our team has 3 coaches, 2 Australians and 1 American (she is still semi involved in her teams in the US as a director and flies out there regularly)

The Novice team has competed regularly in "Figure Skating Club" competitions since the beginning of the year, States was in August and Nationals is in November. Everyone of the kids in that team believes they have got what it takes to represent Australia as the first ever Austalian Olympic Synchronized Skating Team in the future.

as for what they do on ice....I am no expert but I know that one coach works mainly on "Stroking", they do a LOTS of stroking exercises.....and now that they know their program...from what I can see, the program is broken up and they repeatedly work on portions of it..over and over and over.

We have some wonderful, Junior and Senior teams around Australia but the current Novice teams of Australia are our hope for the future of the sport in this country.


I would LOVE to know what you guys do in practise...obviously what ever you are doing works your teams are great

This post has been edited by rubi: Nov 2 2003, 05:46 AM

[Synchro is Great]

Hi

To answer some of the questions posed because of Rubi's comments.
A skater can NOT quad team because of age restrictions in Australia. You have to be at least 15 to skate in an adult team (this has just changed recently) and at least 14 to skate seniors. We currently have some novice/junior two teaming and senior/adult two teaming because of lack of numbers. We have two rinks here and two clubs and because of lack of numbers the skaters are skating between the two rinks. I would be interested to know which JUnior team Rubi is talking about who competed overseas, the only JUnior team who has competed overseas is Allegra from Adelaide and they don't have any other teams at the moment, we have however formed an Allegra senior team who will be competing on their home rink at Nationals in 2004.

I don't know of ANY skaters who are Quad teaming, our club certainly would not allow it. It is too demanding physically on skaters and too financially draining for parents.

PS Our JUnior team trains twice a week for 1 hour on ice and 1 hour off ice
we increase to 3 times per week a month before Nationals. We have won 2 gold 1 silver and 2 bronze in the last 5 years. Fingers crossed next week we compete in our Nationals competition and hope to win Gold.
We also competed in the World Challenge Cup for Juniors in Zagreb, Croatia
in 2002, that was an experience our team will never forget. We finished 17 out of 19 which we were very excited about. The standard of the teams
was awesome and everyone made us feel welcome. We hope we can compete again next year in an International event.

Finno has a point if a team trains six times a week you would expect them
to be unbeatable.



This post has been edited by Synchro is Great: Nov 20 2003, 11:03 PM

[Sk8r]

I agree with 'Synchro is great'. It is impossible for a skater to skate in all
4 divisions here in Australia. Novice skaters certainly would not have the
ability to skate seniors unless that senior team was full of beginners, let alone the age requirements.

Maybe Rubi is new to the sport and doesn't quite understand how it all works.

Our club would not allow this to happen, we only allow double teaming between novice/junior or junior/senior if it means a team is a couple of skaters short.

[kgb]

QUOTE

Novice skaters certainly would not have the ability to skate seniors unless that senior team was full of beginners, let alone the age requirements.

Here in the US, it's extremely common for novice skaters to skate on senior teams, and vice versa- even in the highest level teams. Our age requirements are the same as yours, i think- do we have any other different requirements or something?